How can we have curious conversations in divided times?

Christine Renaud: 00:00

Welcome to the More the Brainier, the brave space where creative minds come to share and solve their most pressing burning questions. From Montreal, I'm your host, Christine Renaud, CEO of Braindate. Over the last decade at Braindate, I've seen over and over again how peer-led discussions can truly be transformative. This is why, for each of our three guests, I will guide a conversation that will hopefully help them solve their most pressing burning question.

I'm here today in the studio with Jane Gibb, our creative producer.

Jane Gibb: 00:52

Hello everybody! This month on this first ever edition of the More the Brainier, we're delighted to welcome Rekha Magon, Co-Founder and Head of Education at Boundless Life, Felix Rundel, Co-Founder and Chief Research Officer at Future Hain, and Vinod Rajasekaran, CEO and Editor-in-Chief at Future of Good. Together we'll delve into their burning questions and explore a range of intriguing topics, including the intersection of boundaries and guilt, the interplay of dark mode and hope mode, and the art of fostering curious conversations in divided times.

Christine: 01:30

Rekha, Felix, Vinod, Bonjour! So glad you're here. Where are you joining from?

Vinod Rajasekaran: 01:43

I'm in Ottawa, Canada.

Felix Rundel: 01:45

Berlin, Germany.

Rekha Magon: 01:47

I'm calling in from Syros, Greece, a small island in Greece.

Christine: 01:53

What are you doing in the weekends when you live in Greece?

Rekha: 01:56

We're going to do carnival, so it's carnival this weekend. So the entire island dresses up in costumes and learns dances and then parades around the streets. So that'll be our first experience to an authentic Greek carnival. Looking forward to it.

Christine: 02:12

Wow. Felix, you have carnivals in Berlin?

Felix: 02:15

And yeah, in the rest of Germany it's happening now, but Berlin is more, well, focused on other things. Let's put it that way.

Vinod: 02:25

I love the euphemism.

Christine: 02:31

Well carnivals do bring people together. Yeah.

Rekha: 02:34

Yeah.

Felix: 02:35

Yeah.

Christine: 02:36

Okay, let's jump in with Vinod's burning question. So Vinod, Rajasekaran, you're a runner, a bookworm, a home cook, a Star Trek geek, and the CEO of Future of Good. In life, you're also an amateur sociologist, National Geographic fan, and a vinyl music listener, and meditation practitioner. Could you tell us more about Future of Good?

Vinod: 03:04

Yeah, thanks Christine for the invitation. Absolutely lovely to be on the podcast. At Future of Good, we believe that there's tremendous passion, creativity, and ingenuity right across the world of impact. And one of the questions that guides us and our team every day is, how can we unlock the potential of changemakers everywhere? Because we know that there's a tonne of creativity and ingenuity and passion.

However, the social purpose world is also experiencing and navigating a number of transformations right now, right? From AI to equity, inclusion, anti-racism, to modernising their own business models, to attracting and retaining volunteers, to prioritizing well-being. So there's a number of these types of transitions that everybody is navigating and we all want to make a bigger difference at work every day.

And in order to do that, we all have to learn, unlearn, and relearn. So Future of Good's mission is to enable a smarter social purpose world because we believe that smart teams accelerate social change. And whether they are community-serving organizations like Furniture Bank and 2 in 1 Ontario or big INGOs like, know, Canadian Red Cross or CARE, World Vision, or corporate citizenship teams at big banks and tech companies.

Everybody wants to make a bigger difference in their work. And we do that through journalism, through professional learning events and conferences, and through research.

Christine: 04:40

That's great. And is there a difference between what you had envisioned your role being at Future of Good as an organisation when you started and after it's been seven years, right? Yeah. So what is the difference between where you started, what you thought your impact, your work would be and where you're at now?

Vinod: 04:52

Seven years.

Yeah, mean, the future of good as it exists today is an anomaly, really. We started life as a one-day conference, which you were a part of, and we had brain dates at the conference. We never envisioned it to become a leading professional resource for Canada's changemakers, know, beating the Toronto star in LinkedIn impressions and so on. So, you know, this was something that we responded to after we hosted our conference.

And at that time, a lot of changemakers across the country really wanted a platform that was really covering and reporting on all of the good things, the positive things that were happening in the social purpose world. Because most of what you would hear are scandals and other sort of not so positive things. then the learning was also very sort of here and there. We live in a stupidly big country.

And if we were the size of Netherlands, people could get around and attend conferences and things like that really, really well. But all of the learning was very disconnected. And so it became really difficult for folks to stay on top of the new knowledge and insights that they needed to know to make their work better. And we really think we're on the right track when about 85 % of people said that our journalism and our learning events made them smarter.

Christine: 06:29

That's wonderful.

Let's jump in with your burning question. So you'll have 90 seconds to share with us your burning questions and you might, as you know, also include any context that would help us better support you.

Vinod: 06:48

Yeah, thank you. My burning question is how can we have curious conversations and divided times? And I'll contextualize this with a story. Back in 2019, I was in a room full of changemakers. There must have been about 500 people. And I was invited to give a talk. And the curator of that gathering did the introductions before I went up, introduced what this gathering is about. And one of the things that she said that, you know,

She was so proud of the diversity in the room. know, lots of, you know, young people and black people and brown people and queer folks and indigenous folks and, you know, refugees and immigrants and women and so on. And she said all of that and she passed the mic to me and she said, know, I think this is one of the most diverse groups of changemakers in the country. And so I went up to the mic and I said, how many of you would vote conservative? And out of the entire room, one person put up their hand.

Very reluctantly. And so here's the thing that I've realized is that as change makers, we are generally very welcoming and that's really good. We're inclusive. We want to be more inclusive. We want to have more, you know, indigenous folks and young people and women and black folks and queer folks and all of that. We're generally inclusive except for one group. And that's people who don't believe in the same things we believe in.

So the room may have been diverse in names and skin tones, but had very little viewpoint diversity. And that's not a diverse room, that's a bubble. So I think we're stumbling around the precipice of transformational possibilities in the world, but we're too divided to see it clearly. And we're dismissing people for ideological reasons. We need more people saying, I never thought of it that way.

Christine: 08:27

Mm-hmm.

Vinod: 08:46

Where is the compassion? Where is the smiles? Where is the care? Where is the humility, the generosity, the listening, the love? Where is all of this? We're now socialised because of all kinds of things to see what's wrong, what's missing, and to tear down the ideas of others and uplift our own. And so I believe the future really depends on learning to be curious, learning to listen without assumptions or judgment or wanting to be right.

So my question here is, how can we have curious conversations in divided times?

Christine: 09:32

Rekha and Felix, do you have any clarifying questions?

Felix: 09:37

Can you elaborate on curious questions again? It sounds like a personal matter. What do you find curious? Is there a general definition of curious for you?

Vinod: 09:51

The definition for me would be to inquire into the subject matter of what we're talking about with openness and without assumptions or any judgment, but with a genuine openness to listening to what the other person has to say.

Christine: 10:11

Rekha, do you have a question?

Rekha: 10:12

Yeah, guess a question would be like, how do you even, like you mentioned in your question, how do you even bring people together who have such differing opinions to the table to have these curious questions? Because I think our society also tends to just stick to people that they have the same philosophies or, you know, beliefs. So I think, you know, there's even like... or just a follow-up question, right, is how do we curate groups and conversations knowing that you're going to go in and have this, you know, very opposite kind of opinion to something so that then you can have the curious conversation together.

Vinod: 10:59

Yeah, I think it's a really good point. And I would sort of nuance that by saying, not sure that we need to actively, I think, be open, but it's more the inverse is happening in that we lock ourselves out of interacting with people we don't agree with. And so, when you're always surrounded by people who share the same beliefs and ideologies as you,

you end up sharing your blind spots too. And the whole group has the same blind spots. So the question, one of questions I'm holding is why is it so important to be around people we don't agree with?

Christine: 11:41

Do you have any example of an odd of such conversations taking place that you've witnessed?

Vinod: 11:48

Yeah, there's no shortage of examples. Everything from people disagreeing on whether the climate crisis is a real thing or if that's something that is fabricated and manufactured, all the way to, know, do refugees and immigrants actually bring positive value to a community and a society, all kinds of things.

Christine: 12:14

But are these curious conversations? What I meant, I'm sorry, my question wasn't clear. What I mean is, do you have examples of those curious conversations happening where people actually from the both side of the divide come together and have those conversations?

Vinod: 12:27

No, sorry, I misunderstood the question. To be honest with you, I am in that quest right now. Like I'm in the quest for finding spaces where these types of conversations are intentionally happening, not accidentally. I'm not so sure that we're going to find them in the places that we're actually looking for. so, you know, looking, you know, everything from my neighborhood park, to my neighborhood cafe all the way to big conferences like TED, you But I haven't really come across any inspiring examples, I suppose is my answer. But that doesn't mean that doesn't exist.

Christine: 13:12

Thank you.

Thank you everyone for the questions. So now it's time for you to sit back and take it in and Rekha and Felix to share your ideas, perspectives and comments on Vinod's burning question.

Felix: 13:30

I can start and tackle this from a very practical angle this time. So my experience in this is coming both from the experience as an event meeting designer and a conceptual designer for gatherings in a way.

And then also that I worked for a while academically in audience development strategies, mostly for cultural institutions that were running out of audiences since the old patrons died and there were no more younger patrons to come after. So from the latter, I think the tangible practical advice is that you need to have a co-host of sorts who is on that side, who is part of that other opinion community if you want, and in order to be able to co-invite.

So it starts with the hosting and then it goes to the space. Where is this happening? Is this on a neutral territory or third space? I mean, you mentioned your quest also for space. And then it's of course about formats. How can you make it safe for everyone? Because the kind of conversation that you mentioned and we want to have is first of all, looking like a lot of stress to both sides to really overcome these differences. And let yourself be in that space is causing a lot of stress.

So how can you relieve that stress in the first place and clear the air? But I would start by this co hosting role, who do you have that is representative of that other if we don't want to even have this us and other but of the people you want to have in the conversation.

Christine: 15:23

Love it.

Felix: 15:24

Rekha

Rekha: 15:25

Yeah, I mean, my thoughts went to kind of like introspecting my own inner dialogue, right? Like I can say, I can see myself getting uncomfortable when, you know, someone brings up something that I probably don't align with in terms of my own beliefs. So for me, would be like to kind of just hone in on myself and to really catch myself in that moment, you know, in the moment to moment experiences to stay present and like, you know, question, hey, why all of a sudden do I feel like I need to get on the defensive, right?

Why all of a sudden am I getting into this other seat that I need to prove myself or prove my belief and, you know, get, like, just catch yourself when you're getting on that defensive. I mean, that's where my mind went to because I just guiltily can see myself going there, you know, even if I don't say it, I find myself right away kind of questioning, you know, and..

So for me, it's very much an, I would say, an inner dialogue of pausing, being aware of that defensiveness, and then asking myself, hey, what can I learn here? Right? Reframing it for myself first, is that there's always something to learn. So if this defensiveness or ego is all of sudden starting to roar with me just because this person has a different opinion,

you know, how can I sit back, get curious, like Vinod is saying, and kind of take an approach of what can I learn and not automatically, like, feed the desire to win, you know, or the desire to prove my point. So I would say it really kind of starts, I would say, with myself first. I'm guilty of needing to practice that myself first. And then once I can practice it, then maybe can kind of share that. You know, with my circle and hope that others can do the same.

Christine: 17:30

And I think that ties in very nicely with what Felix was mentioning. I love what you're mentioning, Felix, about the co-hosting. And I think the co-hosting allows for the creation of a model, like of modeling that behavior. It's possible to be on the two ends of a spectrum and still be curious and welcoming of each other to what Rekha was mentioning as well, know, like modeling this willingness to be transformed, this willingness to engage. So having that dual hosting, I think is such a beautiful idea and so powerful.

And I was thinking, when I heard of Vinod's question, about Amin Malouf, idea of the threatened identities that humans will gather and divide around their identity that is being threatened. And I think, again, that idea of co-hosting in a safe place, neutral space, provides such a bit of a relief around that feeling of being threatened when we come and engage with.

The other, you know, in parentheses, like, yeah, "the other" as we could call it.

Felix: 18:35

build on established common ground, as in we all have basic needs and patterns. Build on that with creative, playful means. An example is that we did a series of science stands at market halls around Berlin. So everyone needs to buy vegetables. You run into interesting science and have conversations about topics that you wouldn't maybe have in other spots. So maybe two more things to add to what's been said.

Christine: 19:13

amazing.

So thank you everyone. Vinod, it's your time to just share takeaways, next steps, things that were meaningful for you that you heard.

Vinod: 19:29

Yeah, thanks, Rekha, and thanks, Felix and Christine. Yeah, it was super insightful. Thank you so much. I really like the... It sparked a philosophical question in me, and that is, can there be an us without a them? I think that's a really important question philosophically for me that I'm going to reflect on. I love, Rekha, what you said about learning, and I think this is one thing that... I'm going to start to incorporate this question of what can this teach me about how to improve our humanity?

I love the idea of co-hosting. I was thinking about how can I co-host in life? It's one thing to co-host in a proper event, in a space, so on, but how can I co-host in life? How can I co-host with my kids? How can I co-host in my neighborhood, on my street, with my neighbors? All this. And just the idea of co-hosts in your life, think, is a really neat sort of opportunity that allows everybody to sort of open up.

Christine: 20:32

Lovely, absolutely. Thank you all. This is the conclusion of our first series. It was such a privilege and a delight to have this moment with you. I'm thanking you for your ideas and your care and your willingness to share and to be vulnerable and to share your own questions. It was a true pleasure to have you all.

Vinod: 20:52

Thanks so much for the invitation. Really lovely to share space with you all.

Felix: 20:55

Cheers.

Rekha: 20:55

Thank you.

Christine: 20:58

Thank you all for listening. Also, many thanks to Jane Gibb, our creative producer here at The More the Brainier, and to Chris Leon and Jenya Sverlov, our delightful sound engineers.

Jane: 21:12

This brings us to the end of our first series. Thank you for listening. We'll be back next month with more burning questions. This podcast was brought to you by Braindate, the world's leading technology that turns your event into a knowledge sharing feast, leaving your participants transformed by each other.

If you have any contributions, you can share them on Braindate's LinkedIn page, where we'll post the episodes.