How can I switch from citizen-spectator to active participation in an increasingly turbulent world?

Christine Renaud: 00:13

Welcome to the More the Brainier, the brave space where creative minds come to share and solve the most pressing burning questions. From Montreal, I'm your host, Christine Renaud, CEO of Braindate.

Also with me today is Jane Gibb, our Creative Producer.

Jane Gibb: 00:37

Thank you, Christine! We're delighted to be joined by Paul Propster, former NASA strategist and founder of their Story Lab, Jennie Glazer, CEO of Coqual, Center for Talent Innovation, and Fady Atallah, Creative Director of Cities at Moment Factory. The themes we'll be discussing this month are re-centering one's own purpose mid-career, the questions we ask ourselves as leaders, and the best way to move from passive to active citizen. Over to you, Christine.

Christine: 01:15

Thank you, Jane. Fady, Paul, Jennie, welcome back and welcome to the last episode of this third series. It's a pleasure to have you again. Before we dive into Fady's question, I wanted to explore something that we quickly mentioned yesterday. So Jennie, you mentioned in your intake form for the podcast that you're many things and an enthusiastic audience member.

So I thought I would have the perfect group right now to address this question that I think about every time I go see a live experience. Have standing ovations become the new norm? What's happening with standing ovations? Should we do standing ovations every single time we go see a show? Or keep it for excellent performances? Jennie, please.

Jennie: 02:02

I'm pro standing ovation because I think the audience is dwindling for live performances. I just went to the New York Philharmonic. There were two world premieres. They were exceptional, like tears to the eyes. The audience is really lazy in New York City. I'm just looking at you, New York City. And I got up and I was like full-hearted standing ovation because it was extraordinary to see live composers be able to have their beautiful music out.

I see a lot of under appreciated and under represented performers also as an audience member. And so I'm to be on my feet giving them all of my joy and heart. It is a gift to be able to see people who practice 16 hours a day. In some cases, get up and do this stuff. I am pro. What are we being stingy for? It's a gift that people are performing music, theater. everything. Let's give them our love.

Christine: 03:03

And so do you keep your standing ovations for exceptional performance or for good enough performance given the work that people do and the efforts? Like what are we standing for?

Jennie: 03:15

I love this judginess you have. I'm here for “was I moved?” Am I proud of the contributions that someone shared with me? And nine times out of 10, I mean, maybe it's because I'm going to really good things. I am moved. I am grateful. I'm going to get up on my feet and show some love.

Christine: 03:38

Okay. Okay. Fady, what do you think? I wonder if it's a Canadian thing. Like I feel that I see standing ovations all the time and I'm up on my feet too, but sometimes I'm like, should we just keep the standing ovations for when it's like life changing or is it the new norm? And when you don't stand, it's kind of a statement that the show kind of suck. Like what is up with that? What is up with that? Fady, what do you think?

Fady: 04:00

I think it's cultural because I think in Paris and it seems in New York as well, I was in a show last week, people don't stand up. But inversely, in Montreal, in Quebec in general, people stand up always. But also we are known in Quebec to be a great audience for shows. People love to come to Quebec to perform because they get what Jennie's talking about.

In Paris, the show was maybe amongst the best I've seen in my life. It was a ballet show from the Geneva Theatre Company. Incredible, a triptych. People didn't really stand up. I stood up. I did the same as Jennie. And people really clapped for a long time. A long time. Five, seven, eight minutes of clapping.

Christine: 04:47

Sitting. Because you would never see that in Montreal. People would be clapping for eight minutes but standing on their feet. And I was just in TED, at TED in Vancouver, so don't think it's a, maybe it's even a Canadian thing because, you know, TED is, the audience is American, but it's also very, very Canadian. And for most talks, people were standing. And, you know, granted that it's TED, talks are great, but sometimes, you know, the quality varies or the… think that maybe the relevancy or the connection to the audience, but people were on their feet constantly. And I was like, huh, what about you, Paul? Maybe it's just a Quebec thing.

Paul: 05:23

Well, I'm a stander. The first one, you know, it kind of encouraged everybody, come on. You know, we were just at a super powerful show at the Hollywood Bowl for first responders and those impacted by the fires, right? And so of course that was just amazing. And we were standing up and down multiple times during that show because we felt like we were a part of it.

And it was fantastic. Like Fady and Jennie, I just think it's brave for those folks to get up there. Kind of like with our missions at JPL, it's their life's work. They're up there, they're doing their thing. And I just love to spread the joy and the encouragement and keep it up. So yeah, definitely a standard.

Christine: 06:35

Okay, good to know. I will say that I'm a slow clapper. I've experienced two times in my life me talking about my love of slow clap to my friends at a bar or a restaurant and then saying like, this food is delicious and starting a slow clap, you know, like this very intense, like I'm alone clapping. But I don't care, just like in the movies, and then you get up and then you look around and then you clap louder and some people. Twice in my life, I got a whole restaurant to clap without knowing why, just because we had started a slow clap. So I strongly encourage all the standers to take it a notch further and start a slow clap in a restaurant or a bar.

Jennie: 07:02

Challenge accepted.

Christine: 07:03

Fantastic. And talking about great experience, we have our last guest of this series, Fady Atallah, that I'm delighted to have with us. So Fady, you're one of the Creative Directors at Moment Factory, and I would love if you could share a little bit the work that you do there.

Fady: 07:58

Great, thanks. I'm very happy to be here and to have this conversation with the amazing Jennie and Paul and you, Christine, as well. I've been with Moment Factory for about eight years. Before that, I had my interactive media studio doing a lot of work on narrative. Then I closed my studio and then consulted for a few years before I joined Moment Factory when there was an opportunity to Focus Moment Factory's work, Moment Factory is a multimedia entertainment studio on the urban space. So Moment Factory was reorganizing. They wanted to open or at least focus on a branch that was more in the permanent installation, large scale, and also always, of course, creative from content to technical expertise, et cetera. So I joined the company as a creative director and it's been a great time since.

So what we basically do is really focusing on the interactions we have in the urban space from traveling, train stations, airports to retail, commercial spaces, and public space, of course. Also some landmarks and see how with multimedia we can bring an additional layer, bring magic to the spaces, get people together. We're really driven by our motto, which is “We do it in public”, so really the public is our prime focus. How do we bring people together to have a collective experience, share memories, and remember that space, place, experience that they've had, and share it with their loved ones and with the public at large. So we have other groups in the company working on live shows, on museum, or more narrative environments, on brands, et cetera, but I'm really focused on the urban space.

Christine: 09:04

I think that most listeners probably had an experience with some of Moment Factory, Moment Factory’s work, even if they don't know about it. For example, the Billie Eilish last show, all the set design was crafted by the team at Moment Factory.

Fady: 09:16

Yeah, exactly. We have temporary shows, so mostly the bands. So we've worked with Billie Eilish, with Olivia Rodrigo. Recently we've done a Madonna show and tour back a few years ago, as well as many other artists. And also more permanent shows, so the Lumina, the Night Walks, that we have about 25 in the world right now, starting about five in Canada, in the US, et cetera. So people see our work. And in the airports, you work with like Shangi or Doha, or, you know, we work in...pretty much in most of the prime airports. have 50, 60 million people that go through these airports every year. So they see the work, they go through these emotions as they're traveling.

Christine: 09:57

Amazing. And you also mentioned that when you're not at Moment Factory, you're also an aspiring politician, which will bring us to your burning question.

Fady, I would love if you could share with us your burning question in any context that might help us support you.

Fady: 10:21

Yeah, I wonder where to start because we obviously are all going through a pretty kind of a hectic, upheaval, paradigm shifting, dangerous, vicious circle, you name it, a period in the history of the world, actually. And this kind of idea of being in politics has been with me since a very, long time relegated to the third or fourth option at any given life decision that I had to make.

But with the recent events in the past couple of years, you know, there was first the Ukraine war, but then really, I think the breaking point was the war in the Middle East. Obviously, it touched a nerve, but I think beyond me, it's something that I think has revealed a lot of contradictions and a lot of weaknesses in the way. We are able to influence our politics. Climate change is another one where you all know what's there to do, but we're unable to act. And this idea of being a spectator has become completely stressful for me, just kind of looking at the world and not be able to do anything, feeling this feeling of impotence. know, Leonard Cohen said once, I love the country, but I can't stand the scene.

I love the world, but I can't stand the scene. You know, there's so much going on. And you know, we live in a great country of Canada, and Canada is completely absent from whether international stuff or even locally. We're kind of stuck in this inertia, political inertia, where change is very difficult and we're unable to deal with the world problems. So I'm like, there's maybe this calling. I can't put it away. It just keeps on coming back.

So as I get into a phase in my life where I'm looking at the future, I'm kind of thinking, what can we do? And how can we switch from being spectators, citizens that are spectators, to citizens that are active? And I think political action is now very important, whereas we could have not participated many years ago. You could just vote every now and then. You could read the news. But just reading the news is just not enough anymore. Being informed is not enough because...

Anyway, you don't have impact on the decision making. So there's like this nagging question in my head. How can we influence that? How can we be active? How can we have an impact, a real impact on the world? And I think this idea of tangible impact is very important to me. I'm at a stage where I want to see results. Long term, doesn't matter, but we want to see something that's happening. The abstract is not enough. So yeah, that's kind of what's nagging me.

Christine: 12:56

Pretty much how can we switch from this citizen spectator posture to more active participation?

Thank you so much for sharing Fady. Jennie and Paul, this is our moment to ask clarifying questions to Fady.

Jennie: 13:20

One of the things that popped out is Citizen Spectator is very broad. So who do you specifically want to activate? Is it the public? Is it policymakers? Is it artists? Is it neighbors? Is it you?

Christine: 13:37

Great question.

Jennie

Curious about the who?

Fady: 13:39

That's a very good one. I thought about the first three, but not about the fourth that you asked, which is about me. So I'll start with the ones that I thought about. So I think there's many layers. think it's political. thinking really, political action is important for me, not social, not humanitarian, not that they're not important, but that's not what's driving me. But I think there's us in Canada, we have the federal level that where

There's something really interesting happening there, but at the same time, it's a completely paralyzed system. Maybe not completely, but pretty paralyzed, like not much action. If you listen to the politics there, it's all about policy, not about the big questions. And, you know, again, no action on the big questions on the climate and other things and wars. We say things, but we don't act on them. The two-state solution being one where we can't.

We say we're a two-state solution, but then when there is one state being disseminated, we just don't say anything. But it's interesting because it has potential. And I really believe in Canada's role in the world. That's what I grew up with, with the idea of Canada as an actor. brings people together. That's a peacekeeping force, et cetera. So that role we've abandoned. So there's a really interesting area there, as well as working across the country and developing modern infrastructure, putting train lines, fast trains, and that's what made us who we are, but we're not doing it. So there's that level that's kind of interesting for me.

There's the municipal level, which is really interesting as well, because that's what I do in my work. And I kind of know that environment well from a certain point of view about cities, how do you shape cities? And there's a lot of questions now. The urban space is really interesting because that's where you shape culture, that's where you can influence the environment, that's where you can create new things, innovation, et cetera.

Then there is the kind of political but not political, which is the art scene. I talked about in our last conversation about the concert that I organized that's really interesting for me. Music is medicine, music is magic, music is hope, music is amazing. So like do I work in that field? But then the impact is not necessarily the action that I was thinking about, but still I have a lot of...affinity.

And maybe the fourth one, yes, it is me because if I haven't done it, there's a reason to be something to be explored maybe with my psychic or someone but there's something stuck in a box somewhere.

Paul: 16:15

All right. Well, Fady, you know, Jennie kind of poked at the who, I want to poke a little bit at the how. You know, the ancient Greeks had this condition called acratia. It's knowing the right thing to do, but being unable to do it. I think that kind of ties in with those spectators, you know. Some of them may want to actually do something, but they feel like they're unable to do it. Kind of like, is my one vote going to make a difference? Kind of thing. So how, you know, with your experience in engaging the public, especially in public spaces, you know, have you thought about the how and maybe bringing some of that into how you may activate folks, give them agency, right?

Fady: 16:56

Yeah, that's what's interesting about why I mentioned politics because I think, you know, there's a lot of one theory about politics that politics is the art of the possible. I think, yes, it is the art of the possible, but it's also a very creative field where you create new possibilities by shifting the narrative, by allowing people to imagine other things, by breaking deadlocks in organizations and the way things are structured.

So I think there's definitely work to be done on the machinery to activate things, but there's also work on people. I think we might have mentioned that in our previous conversation where we underestimate people. I think people can do much more. And in a way, it's proven now that you can do things to the system. The system is not locked. Maybe the ones that are doing it is not the action that we hope to do, but there's people who are wrecking the system, who are changing the system completely.

So all the time that they told us that things were not possible, that we were doing the maximum, was not true. It was a lie. So you could change state structure. You can do a lot of things. I think that's in the political scene, but in the public space, I think in the urban space there's a lot of things to do. Some cities are doing great work as well. The transformation of Paris amongst them with of course, very debatable with the, in Paris, you know, the bicycles, the public transport, the art in the public space, removing some of the constraints on people's activities in public space, creating more vibrancy, more interaction, because when people are together physically, things are different, right? You need to have people physically together, breaking the loneliness, making sure that people see each other, recognize each other's differences, et cetera. And that's when we talk about changing the narrative, changing the perception of the other, bringing more empathy into these spaces.

I think there's a lot of work to be done at that level, especially nowadays. And I think Jennie works in that field in of the corporate leadership world. But there's a lot of work to be done. I don't know exactly how. I haven't given it enough thought yet. But I can, you know, I'm a creative director. I can find solutions very quickly.

Christine: 19:07

Yeah, and you're also an entrepreneur, which brings me to my question around what's your problem to solve and what's your vision of success? Because what you're talking about, we're talking about trains and we're talking about public spaces and the climate and there's just so much going on and there's a need for citizen or political intervention at so many levels. And I wonder for you, what is the one thing that is the problem that calls your name? the most and what is your vision of success? Let's say in 15 years when you're ready for your next chapter, what would you like to see that is different? If you had to choose one now.

Fady: 19:49

Yeah, I think the problem to solve now is a very human problem, but also organizational. But let's focus on the human. I think we have much more agency than we are led to believe, and I think people are kind of recognizing it. But what is probably missing is what to change and how, at what scale. At the micro scale, you find a lot of solutions, but how do you go from micro scale to bigger scales, to large scale? how do you create change that is impactful? Because what's required is really going to 1.5 degrees of temperature change is very difficult and it requires a lot of work. So how come we're not able to do it? How come do we reject the carbon tax? So I think that for me would be the measure of success, although I'm not sure we can apply the entrepreneurship measurable model necessarily the same way to politics.

But the ability to pass on these fundamental changes comes from a bigger change, which is that's where we want to go and we accept the sacrifices or the changes that come with that action and being able to implement some of these. I think like, you know, a 1.5 degrees would be a measure of success. So why are we still investing in pipelines? I know all political parties now have to go for pipelines. Otherwise they get Trump on their back and they lose votes, et cetera. But why are they losing votes if they say we want to develop pipelines?

Isn't the public able to say, yes, we want to stop pipelines? That for me is the problem to solve. But it's also an opportunity to invent something new, a different kind of living together. And I think that this narrative is what I'm trying to get at, this new narrative.

Christine

Okay, this is good, good stuff.

Okay, Fady, this is your time to sit back and relax and take it all in while Jennie and Paul and I do the work. So we'll be sharing some ideas and insights and you'll be granted your voice again in a few minutes. It's the spa, it's the mind spa of the more the brainier. So Jennie and Paul?

Fady: 21:57

Thank you, I needed that break.

Jennie: 22:09

I had three great thinkers in this space that came to mind. One was Henry Jenkins and civic engagement. And really, that's about how can you build if it's climate? How do you build something that is a collective so people can see themselves inside the story of the future? Sort of build the story container, because I think that's part and parcel with what you did.

And then the other thing that came to mind was the Marshall Ganz framework that he was the really one of the inspirations behind Obama's Yes, we can. And that's the story of me, story of us, story of now. I would go deep there and really reflect because from my perspective, this isn't about you igniting change. It's getting people in there with you.

And I also thought there's probably something for you to reflect on with psychological safety and Amy Edmondson's work, because this is really a turbulent world where people have lost trust and faith, and there's a lot of fear infused into this moment. And so I think, how do you create space so people have emotional permission? And what does safety look like in a public space when everything feels uncertain?

And how do we design for trust, not just compliance? And so ultimately, I don't think this is about a civic overhaul. This is about creating a small moment around something you're passionate about that reminds people that they belong. And can you create that? And the answer is you're the perfect person to create that because you do this for so many people, I think those three thinkers might be a really good source of fuel for you as you think about when I focus on the thing I wanna change, how can I actually galvanize people in the sense of belonging?

Christine: 24:15

Mm-hmm. I love it, Jennie. Thank you. Paul?

Paul: 24:17

Things I heard you sharing, Fady, so like this new language, you almost need a new language to help build this new narrative. And we tackled this a little bit at JPL. You know, one example was around sea level rise, and that just seems to be tired. You know, it's not getting the impact that we wanted. So we did a couple focus groups, did a little challenge out there to the public. And just a simple example was we kind of started talking about land loss versus sea level rise. That's a new set of traction around that. So I agree. I think you're spot on. There's got to be a new language, a new narrative. And then maybe a little bit of the how is this idea of expeditions, getting people together. You collect some folks and then you help activate them. You go from collective inaction to maybe collective action.

And you can kind of break it up in bite sized chunks. As you were mentioning earlier, maybe it's at the municipality level and then it kind of starts to gain some traction and move its way up. But I think in the end, you are looking for behavior change, right? So how do you change the current behavior? And again, as Jenny pointed out, I think your journey feeds right into this.

I mean, everything that you've done, the things that you're doing, and now the thing that you want to do just seems to kind of all come together with what you've been doing and using technology and a new narrative, you know, kind of blending those things together to open people's eyes, right? As you mentioned, I think folks have more agency now than they think they do. And we just kind of need to remind them of that to help drive some meaningful and lasting impact. It's just a couple of things that I wanted to share.

Christine: 26:08

Absolutely. And I would add to that, going back to our conversation with Paul when Jennie mentioned do you have a prototype, I think it's really applicable here again, just because the problem and this situation, not to say the mess is so big and complex, that I feel that that's often why people have this tendency to inaction. It's just like they don't know where to start. And I think that you're such a great thinker, Fady, and you are so gifted with words that I think that building a prototype of an expedition like Paul mentioned, I think is absolutely lovely and documenting this and rewriting literally the narrative by documenting and maybe writing a book or writing something that can become this kind of like a document of reference that people can use when they feel that the spirit that you're mentioning and they feel that despair of, know I should be doing something, I would like to do something, but I don't know where to start. Could you create and craft that narrative around where do you start when you don't know how to be useful and how to be impactful as a citizen? Because to be honest, I don't know if politics is the best way to go for you, maybe knowing you and knowing also how unimpactful sometimes politics can be because of all the influences at play. So I would maybe explore another avenue.

Jennie, you seem to want to add something to this.

Jennie: 27:37

I was thinking because you're a designer and you design experiences and so in a noisy world designing for attention is actually easy. What you're trying to do is design for agency. That's the work. Yeah. And so how do you…an agency is giving people a voice in a space and a shared vision of the future that you all know you can co-create. And it doesn't have to be a big, large thing. If you go back to the days of the civil rights movement, these things happened in churches. They happened at potlucks. They happened in these moments and gatherings where people felt.

that this small action of me boycotting the bus is going to drive us towards the change that we want.

Christine

And it did.

Jennie

Yeah.

Paul

And it did. Yeah, Jenny, I love that. It's some pretty audacious things happened in those humble beginnings. And in a way, they were kind of constructed and operated outside of the established system. And I think that's what you're where you're headed, Fady, right? Where you make the challenge or the problem the boss. That's what you're looking at. And then explore it through, you know, the broadest possible set of ideas, right, of interventions, you know, how can we intervene here? I think in general, it's a pretty audacious question, a goal that you have.

Christine: 29:08

That hairball you were mentioning in your conversation, Paul. Thank you, Jennie and Paul. This was really rich. I know I'm gaining a lot from our discussion.

Fady, you are now granted your right to speak. I would love if you could share with us a couple of takeaways you got from the conversation.

Fady: 29:37

Great, thank you. I think it's probably audacious, but you only live once, right?

Christine

Right!

Fady: 29:44

Like, I always think about, you know, what you've got to lose. Not much, honestly. I think there was a lot of really interesting thoughts in there. One thing that I extract from your third point, Jennie, was that it's about there needs to be a movement. And I think Obama, in a way, was a success and a failure at the same time where the movement was created, but then nothing happened with it. So I think the result has to be action and really concrete change, not just mental change. So the narrative should not be the point, but more the means towards something else.

And you kind of gave me the advice that I thought about it, about the advice I gave you yesterday, or the idea at least I gave you yesterday, which is see yourself in the story, right? Over time and how do we imagine futures and make them something tangible. And you mentioned that same thing to Paul where you're talking about the new language and kind of from action to inaction or where to start, right? Where do you start? I think that's a big one. I think that's the main problem. Where to start personally and as individuals, as a group, where do you start? Because there's a really interesting dynamic of the group formation, How one person, the clapping, right? The example that you gave Christine, I don't know if you meant it on purpose. But then slow clapping exactly where you just need to do that first action. This is where you start slow clapping.

Christine

With conviction, with conviction.

Fady

Absolutely. So I don't know that was a great one. Now I'm going to keep it. I'm going to take that one. I'm going to try and do it once because I find it really it needs a lot of conviction. And then so where to start? I think the writing and as I'm talking to some friends, I think that's definitely a place to start for me. And I kind of have started taking notes on that. And I think that's going to lead me somewhere. And then some action, some little project that… and honestly, the show that I organized was a big thing for me. People who worked for the show were thanking me for having organized the show, even though I was just the kind promoter, organizer, because it gave them the chance to do something, right? So I think there's something there to explore and I've been thinking about it. So these are the things that I'm taking away and they're really on top of my mind these days, at least as a sort of having agency myself or at least feeling the agency myself. And then kind of I think that will all go from there.

Christine: 32:18

And I think this is so important what you're just mentioning, Fady, and I think that even when we think about Obama and looking back at his legacy, maybe we could have hoped for more policies, changes. But when you just think about this narrative that we've been talking about pretty much throughout the three episodes that we recorded together is, you know, now young Black folks in United States have seen a Black family being the leaders of the free world, as they call it. And that is maybe more impactful than any of the policies that could have been changed. And just what you were mentioning also in the other episode around, you raised $30,000 for Lebanon and Gaza. But what you're also talking a lot about is the shared experience people had, the feeling that, we're not alone, that maybe something is possible, people thanking you for that experience they had.

I really think that we can never really underestimate the impact we have on other people. sometimes, you know, it's kind of like the teacher impact is just like teachers teach and they don't necessarily see what's going to happen in 20 years, you know, but that seed was planted and something emerged. I think sometimes it's just that humility of not having the instant gratification of seeing, you know, what that impact will be is challenging. But I think anything that you set your your mind and your soul to do, I know will have a great impact on our community.

Jennie

Yeah, I actually don't think you're switching from citizen to participant. I think you're already in it. I think you've been designing for awe and memory and meaning. Now maybe the shift is designing for agency and belonging on something really focused, targeted, and specific that you can touch and feel.

Paul: 34:06

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, kind of making that invisible visible to the folks, as Jennie just said, that they can just kind of hold on to and say, OK, I get it, and I'm on board.

Fady

Beautiful.

Christine

Fady, Jennie, Paul, thank you so much. This was such a treat. I feel so grateful that you accepted to spend all this time with me and with each other. And this was a very fruitful, powerful, and humbling conversation. So I thank you all. And many thanks also to Jane Gibb, our Creative Producer here at The More the Brainier, and to Jenya Sverlov and Chris Leon, our delightful sound engineers.

Jane: 34:53

Thank you, Fady, Jennie, Paul and Christine.

If you have a contribution to Fady’s burning question, please share it on Braindate's LinkedIn page where we'll be posting this episode. This brings us to the end of our series for May.

Next month, on The More the Brainier we’ll hear from Mara Sandoval, Head of Event Design and Interaction and at the World Economic Forum, Cindy Gallop, Founder and CEO of MakeLoveNotPorn and Alex McClean CEO and co-founder of Alveole, covering themes of design, healthy sex education, and sustainability. Join us in June for the last series before our summer break!

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